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Sustituir 10R22,5 por...?

Re: Sustituir 10R22,5 por...?

Notapor leunam » Oct 18th, 17, 13:51

En la página de urovesa hay fotos de unos cuantos juguetes.

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leunam
 
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Re: Sustituir 10R22,5 por...?

Notapor leunam » Nov 11th, 17, 18:09

Una pregunta, a la hora de incluir más medidas de ruedas en el xeito, ¿cuales recomendáis? Tiene 14.5R20 y 365/80R20 en ficha.

En el hilo he visto que se habla de:

365/85R20
13R20
14R20
13R22,5

Tenerlas en la ficha siempre vendrá bien, y como hay que legalizar muchas cosas, ya puestos...

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Re: Sustituir 10R22,5 por...?

Notapor gutidvd » Nov 11th, 17, 18:47

Cada medida que vayas a incluir en la ficha tienes que montarla el día de la visita a la itv.

Siempre que no se pase del 10% es fácil de homologar, mas de ese porcentaje ya necesitas más cosas como ensayos de frenada.

La 365/80R20 y la 14.5R20 son equivalentes de hecho algunas marcas llevan en el neumático el doble marcado en esa medida.
https://expedition-imports.com/0574195

La 365/85R20 y la 13R20 también son equivalentes https://www.vrakking-tires.com/truck4x4 ... l-new.html

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Re: Sustituir 10R22,5 por...?

Notapor leunam » Nov 11th, 17, 19:11

gutidvd escribió:Cada medida que vayas a incluir en la ficha tienes que montarla el día de la visita a la itv.

Vaya, no sabía eso, menudo incordio.
gutidvd escribió:La 365/80R20 y la 14.5R20 son equivalentes de hecho algunas marcas llevan en el neumático el doble marcado en esa medida.

Que sean equivalentes ¿significa que si en la ficha tienes una y en las ruedas marca la otra, no hay problema?

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leunam
 
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Re: Sustituir 10R22,5 por...?

Notapor gutidvd » Nov 11th, 17, 19:16

Eso ya no lo sé, pero hay algunas marcas que etiqueta el mismo neumático con las dos medidas, digamos que una es la americana y otra la europea.

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Re: Sustituir 10R22,5 por...?

Notapor leunam » Nov 11th, 17, 19:38

Puestos a añadir alguna, ¿cual sería la más recomendable? Por facilidad de encontrarlas, economía, etc

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Re: Sustituir 10R22,5 por...?

Notapor gutidvd » Nov 11th, 17, 19:51

En España encuentras casi todas las medidas, y por lo que he visto en llanta 22,5 son mas baratas aunque no son tan extremas, y son mixtas, pero para lo que hacemos creo que son mas que suficientes.

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Re: Sustituir 10R22,5 por...?

Notapor leunam » Nov 27th, 17, 12:26

Buenas.

Siguiendo el tema de ruedas, no se si habéis leído el artículo que enlazamos más arriba, os lo pongo en inglés gugliano que da para entenderlo, el original es en alemán.

En alemán:
http://www.abseitsreisen.de/blog/reise-informationen/stollenreifen-vs-strassenreifen/

Es una lista de motivos por los que para largos viajes por el mundo, ellos recomiendan neumáticos de carretera (y de obra) y de unas medidas concretas, frente a ruedas de tacos. Han estado 5 años en la carretera con un mercedes 911.
Las cuestiones de ruidos, consumos, tracción, etc ya los conocemos y cada uno tendrá su opinión, pero temas como la disponibilidad en otros países pueden ser determinante. Incluye también las medidas fáciles de encontrar, y las que son casi imposibles de localizar en según qué sitios.

An all-wheel travel expedition truck without off-road bumper tires? Embarrassing!

Or is it wise? Many who plan a tour with their own vehicle ask themselves this question. Many who we meet on the way struggle with the same problems. Here are our personal experiences with studded tires on a long-term journey. For over 100,000 kilometers, we are now on Continental MPT80 and MPT81 tires on the road. It's not just a question of faith in the Globetrotter scene. It is a disaster.

Considered quite soberly, no basic philosophies, only our personal travel experiences: eight tons of travel weight, four-wheel drive, differential lock, single tires. No off-road playground in the sand pit but travel everyday. Five years on the road on five continents, 13 worn tires. Ascending trend. Fast rising. What is in favor of studded tires, what is against it and when do they actually have the advantage over road tires on a travel truck?

Off-road profile

Pro studded tires: Traction in the mud and on wet meadows.

The studded tires are at home on muddy passages and wet meadows. Good self-cleaning, neat passage. Clear advantage over road tires. However, the proportion of unpaved roads on a long-term journey is only between 5 and 15%, most of which is gravel, stones, hard sand tracks and lots of corrugated iron. With all this road tires also offer enough traction. Wet meadows and proper mud passages where the grip of road tires would be the limit? On a circumnavigation of the world of less than 0.0001% and on some bad passages we have raised additional chains in spite of studded tires.

Pro studded tire: handling on snow.

When driving in the snow, the studded tires convince completely. No slipping, no clogging, amazing grip. Even 40 to 50 cm are no problem even without snow chains. It is not for nothing that many winter motorbikes are equipped with exactly our MPT 81 tires. On snow: Clear plus for the studded tires.

Pro stud tire: driveability with very low pressure.

MPT studded tires, in combination with the right rims, are designed to be run with particularly low air pressure. Some speak of a drivability up to 0.7 bar. So far, we've gone a minimum of 1.4 bar when we tried to get out of a mud hole. The tires are pushing apart, the support width and length increases sharply, the traction increases significantly.

low pressure

For short extreme passages or if you are bogged down useful. Realistically, hardly anyone with such low air pressure will travel long distances as the tire sidewalls suffer a lot. Lowering the air pressure on gravel, corrugated iron or in the sand is common practice with any normal tire. Personally I would say the possibility to drive with extremely (!) Low pressure is dispensable. With sand sheets short mud passages are also solvable. Snow chains are a huge help for longer mud runs. A driving test over longer passages with very low tire pressure in the sand is still out with us. If it can not be avoided.

Pro stud tire: the off-road look.

Rational reasons not to justify, but a clear emotional plus for the studded tires in terms of optics: A four-wheeled mobile with rough studded tires just look more like expedition, freedom and adventure. And that pleases. Yes, that's just how it is. For the same reason, the bank board comes recently with the SUV to the 14 o'clock meeting and certainly not because of the bad road conditions on the A92.

Contra Stollenreifen: more consumption.

In direct comparison with similarly heavy vehicles of the same design, I estimate that our stollen tires eat in addition to road tires 1.5 to 2 liters of fuel per 100 km in addition.

Contra Stollenreifen: High volume.

Stollen tires are very loud on tar. In the long term, the high background noise is exhausting. Especially when the bumpers tire off after some time sawtooth, the rolling noise is even louder. The Continental MPT 80 is absolutely terrible, the MPT 81 is much better here. Allegedly, the Michelin XZL is also very loud. By regularly changing the tires every 5000 kilometers, you can at least moderate the sawtoothing a bit.

Contra Stollenreifen: Longer braking distance.

There are increasing voices that report concern about the braking distance with studded tires on wet asphalt. Fortunately, we never had to lay down a critical emergency stop when wet.

Contra Stollenreifen: Injury sensitivity

It is often claimed that an MPT tire is less prone to injury than a road tire, but I very much doubt it. Most of our numerous punctures in recent years have been caused by retracted metal parts or sharp stones. Almost exclusively, the tire was in the area between the studs, where the rubber layer is the thinnest. A road tire has relatively less sensitive spaces in relation.

Flat Tire Lesotho

The sidewalls of modern truck road tires are specially protected against violent collisions with curbs. A single, not particularly heavy touch with a curb in a narrow old town alley of Peru, however, has cost us the last total failure of an almost brand new MPT. All in all, three MPT tires have already suffered total damage from a sidewall defect.

On very stony passages, the studded tires also disappoint. In direct comparison with our retreaded tires with road profile, it has been shown that the MPT-tunnels partially erupt, sometimes even tear off, whereas the road profile shows no major damage.

What you have to consider in the subject of injury sensitivity in addition: After 40,000 kilometers of travel, a stollen tire has worn down considerably, the rubber of the tread is thinner and therefore more sensitive. A road tire would have the same mileage even more protective profile on the tread.

Contra Stollenreifen: behavior on soft sand.

It is certainly also due to our not ideal weight distribution between the axles and the lack of driving skills. Nevertheless, it has also been shown in direct comparison with other identical vehicles with road tires: Our studded tires on soft sand are absolute crap. As soon as they spin, they immediately dig in deeply and very quickly. Yes, yes, let off air. Clear. But are we realistic: I would like to see the driver who leaves the air for 30 minutes in the travel routine because of a 10-meter sand passage and then at least as long to refill. And these are the situations in which you get stuck. Mostly just before sunset, when you are looking for a place to stay overnight. At normal travel air pressure in my opinion are stollen tires on soft sand significantly worse than road tires of the same width.

Contra Stollenreifen: Significantly lower mileage.

Road tires have at least twice the mileage of our studded tires. Continental MPT 80 and 81 are particularly bad and do not make us more than a disappointing 45,000 kilometers. We have already experimented with different Lutfdrucken - no noticeable difference. Every 2500-3000 kilometers our tires lose 1mm profile. Compared to road tires on 90,000 km travel distance an entire set of tires in addition.

After just 35,000 kilometers, we only have 4 to 5 millimeters left on the tire from the beginning of 17 - so that the grip advantage in terrain is gone. Regrooving is at best an absolute stopgap, because it makes the rubber layer between the studs considerably thinner and thus more susceptible to injury.

Wet meadows

The Michelin XZL makes a better impression than our Continental MPT 80 and MPT 81 in terms of mileage, without having any previous experience with what we have seen on other vehicles. 365/80 R20 XZL seem to hold on a 7.5-tonne Unimog to the 80,000 kilometers.

Contra Stollenreifen: Poor availability.

Road tires can be found at every tire dealer in the world. Stollen tires for trucks are normally not operated outside of Europe, except for pure AS field profiles for tractors, which really nobody wants to do to themselves. Only on military and fire vehicles one occasionally discovered MPT off-road tires, but these are usually imported exclusively for the authorities and you come as a private person not to the tires.

We drive with the tire size 12.5 R20 or 335/80 R20. Realistically, this is an absolute disaster for a long-term journey through several continents. The tires fit optically and from their rolling circumference quite well to our vehicle, but the global availability is close to zero. To have spare tires sent abroad is very expensive, time-consuming and often associated with extensive customs formalities. In many countries, the import of tires for private individuals is virtually impossible.

Meanwhile, we have met many other travelers with stollen tires on the travel truck. Almost all of them are struggling with the same problem: MPT studded tires are mostly unknown outside of Europe and it is a disaster until these tires become impossible to raise. Whether Pirelli, Dunlop, Continental or Michelin.

Stony slope Columbia

Contra Stollenreifen: No alternative tires for the rims.

The basic problem here is often the rim dimension, which is designed exclusively for MPT tires. A change to normal tires is therefore only possible with simultaneous change of rims. And the expensive off-road rims then ride as additional weight for better grip on the roof.

Supposedly fit in the worst case so-called '20 -Zoll trailer tire 'on 11er rims, but they are not officially approved nor have I discovered these tires in recent months somewhere on a truck. In many countries, the trailers have been converted to 22.5 rims.

The 12.5 R20 (= 335/80 R20) or 14.5 R20 (= 365/80 R20) common in Central Europe on Unimogs and many, expedition and touring vehicles are extremely rare outside of Europe. Thus, it is actually the absolute biggest nonsense to travel through several continents with such tires. Nevertheless, almost all professional manufacturers of expedition vehicles equip their vehicles with it. Why? Are the noble vehicles perhaps only intended to fight on globetrotter meetings in Germany once a year through muddy meadows?

No, I do not think so. But I think that most expedition manufacturers just do not have a clue as to which tire is available and they are not aware of the problem at all. The off-road look is in the foreground, the practicality of tires here is obviously a minor matter. When we were looking for tires in Asia, we wrote to almost all German expedition mobile manufacturers who equipped their vehicles with MPT tires. Not a single one (!) Could help us if and how to find these tires in Southeast Asia.

Short personal conclusion:

There remain, in addition to all the problems, four arguments that speak for studded tires:

Appearance.

Traction in the mud (with chains detachable).

Driving behavior on snow (detachable with chains).

Driveability with extremely low pressure in extreme terrain (mostly with sand plates detachable).

Do I have chains and sand trays with me - what's left? On a long-term journey: seldom an advantage, many disadvantages and the legendary off-road look. For a trip of a few months and a few thousand kilometers, studded tires may still be ok, if you really want to have the optics to their liking, or if you specifically choose a route that always counts on absolute extreme conditions. Back in Central Europe, you can easily swap the tires after 30,000 kilometers for a set of new ones.

For a long trip outside of Europe, I think they are pretty nonsense for a heavy travel truck. At least for anyone who has not set himself the task of beating and breaking the hardest off-road passages on the continent. Instead of years of clattering tires over the asphalt for the better part of the journey and finally slipping out of the bend when braking on the wet tar, one should seriously consider whether one would rather throw the sand trays on a damp meadow and roughly Mud pulls up chains once a year.

Chain in the slurry

We have met countless other travelers in trucks so far. Many, who were also on the way with stollen tires, complain about the same disadvantages as we, in particular about the considerable problems on the road to find spare tires. Many would go out with other tires next time. In contrast, we have never met travelers who were on the normal profile and complained about problems with their tires.

I remember the Därr meeting 2009 well. There were two Unimogs with road tires in the meadow and some visitors remained shaking their heads contemptuously. At that time I did not know what to think about it. Today I believe that those who disdainfully turn a blind eye when they see a touring unimog with road tires are probably not the most experienced in long-distance travel.

For unusual dimensions: tire pressure monitoring

If I am traveling in a foreign country with an unusual tire dimension, the total loss of one or more tires is a constant concern. Driven hole, not noticed, air out, total loss. This is exactly what you see every day on the gravel roads worldwide. Terribly annoying, because a small hole in the tire can be fixed quickly and easily, if it is noticed immediately.

For several months, we have been using a TireMoni tire pressure monitoring system that monitors tire pressure and immediately indicates a pressure drop. Since then we have been driving much more relaxed, our heads are no longer constantly hanging out the window to inspect the tires and do not have to stop every 15 minutes on hard off-road passages to check the tires for damage. In the past three months, the system has been convincing so far - we will report on the experience in the long-term test.

TIREMONI

So what are the alternatives to studded tires?

Since the curse of tire search, we have always had an open eye for the dimensions that are common in the countries. You get 10R20, 11R20, 12R20 practically everywhere. Meanwhile, 11R22.5, 12R22.5, and 295/80 R22.5 are at home on many roads. We also saw 315/80 R22.5 in many places. Even the modern 385/65 R22.5 are common and would have been found without much drama.

Anyone who thinks that the tread of a 335/80 R20 MPT is wider than that of a 315/80 R22.5 for the drive axle, should measure and will be surprised how little support surface a 335er MPT really offers.

Friends drove 60,000 km across Asia with modern 385/65 R22.5 trailer tires without a single puncture. The profile of the tires certainly lasts up to 100,000 km, despite gravel, sand and stones and the drive across Mongolia and northern Pakistan.

Construction site profiles such as the Michelin XZY-3, Continental HDC, Hankook AM15 or Bridgestone M748, L355 could be a good balance between pure road tires and studded tires for a long-term motorhome as they offer even more reserve with a slightly coarser profile on a wet, greasy surface without all the disadvantages of a MPT tire. According to the manufacturer, construction site tires should also be specially protected against injury. Whether that is actually true, is an open question. But such profiles certainly offer a higher mileage with less consumption, better rolling and braking on the road than a studded tire. If you are looking for a replacement in a foreign country, every 0815 tire fits on the existing rim.

A construction site profile looks even more grip - who still has problems with the look of the motorhome, I recommend a large Stollenreifen sticker .
Última edición por leunam el Nov 27th, 17, 14:15, editado 1 vez en total
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Re: Sustituir 10R22,5 por...?

Notapor vehiculomagico » Nov 27th, 17, 13:48

Seria interesante saber los precios de estas cubiertas y los diferentes proveedores que hay!
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Re: Sustituir 10R22,5 por...?

Notapor leunam » Nov 27th, 17, 15:27

Ruedas de tacos viejas pero sin desgaste las hay en desguaces como los de San Martín de la Vega. Precio, pues depende de cómo te vean de pardillo :D
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Re: Sustituir 10R22,5 por...?

Notapor 10fronterasfotofurgo » Nov 29th, 17, 16:17

leunam escribió:Ruedas de tacos viejas pero sin desgaste las hay en desguaces como los de San Martín de la Vega. Precio, pues depende de cómo te vean de pardillo :D


Suelen estar por 90 euros. Si te ven cara de pardillo, 110/120... Hablo de las Firestone 13R20
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Re: Sustituir 10R22,5 por...?

Notapor vehiculomagico » Nov 29th, 17, 16:50

Buff yo mira que he ido al limite muchas veces en mi coche. Pero creo que para un overland mejor nuevas o con poco tiempo de fabricación! Me da mas seguridad. Aunque es relativo, lo mismo las compras nuevas y llevan años dando vueltas o en el stock de grandes almacenes..
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Re: Sustituir 10R22,5 por...?

Notapor 10fronterasfotofurgo » Dic 3rd, 17, 14:36

vehiculomagico escribió:Buff yo mira que he ido al limite muchas veces en mi coche. Pero creo que para un overland mejor nuevas o con poco tiempo de fabricación! Me da mas seguridad. Aunque es relativo, lo mismo las compras nuevas y llevan años dando vueltas o en el stock de grandes almacenes..


Prepara un mínimo de 600 euros por neumático si lo quieres nuevo. Y si quieres Michelin XZL en 13r20, 1.000 lo más barato que he visto. En 14r20, 1200


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Re: Sustituir 10R22,5 por...?

Notapor leunam » Dic 14th, 17, 10:54

http://www.nomadic-one.com/reflect/off-road-truck-tires-and-rims

Éstos también cambian a ruedas con mayor índice de carga, de dibujo mixto.

Saludos
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Re: Sustituir 10R22,5 por...?

Notapor 10fronterasfotofurgo » Dic 14th, 17, 20:31

leunam escribió:http://www.nomadic-one.com/reflect/off-road-truck-tires-and-rims

Éstos también cambian a ruedas con mayor índice de carga, de dibujo mixto.

Saludos


No están nada mal esos ruedones. No me quiero imaginar el precio, pero son chulos. Las llantas 115 euros cada una no están nada mal.
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